Differences Between Kumdo and Kendo

[Jon83]

I find these kind of discussions extremely interesting and very helpful for both sides when conducted in a positive fashion.

I too hate the revisionist histories, racial bias, and petty fighting that you can see in some Kumdo/Kendo circles. Whilst I agree that essentially they are the same martial art I think there are some very distinct approaches towards keiko and the art that are different.

Note how I say approaches and not stylistic features or forms.

Having come from a Japanese Kendo background for 90% of my Kendo career and only just having started practising seriously with more Korean Kenshi and a very strong Korean Sensei, these approaches are quite striking to me.

I don't feel that the old stereotypes are always correct. For example the widely held assumption that Japanese Kendo is seme followed by one perfect big cut, whilst Korean Kumdo is smaller multiple attacks to create an opening for ippon.

I have spent alot of time living and training in some of the strongest High School Clubs in Southern Japan (such as Ohori High School) and have visited many University Dojo in Kyushu and Honshu. I saw there alot of what people assume as Korean Kumdo. Renzoku waza, aggression, fast movement, small techniques. This wasn't just at the typical high school level (we all know that many people try incorrectly to use high school kendo as a derogeratory term) but also at the end of University level Kendo.

Like wise I have seen Korean players who have focused alot on single attacks and larger big cutting actions (just look at some of the Kumdo on SBS or the 13th WKC).

I think in the west this comes down to the misunderstanding of what seme is (Sorry I don't know the korean term).

Anyway in my experience I have found that Kumdo practioners think alot more about movement and seme from all directions. Forwards, backwards, left, and right. One thing that Cho Sensei has taught me and opened my eyes to is this aspect of always keeping light on your feet and moving around your opponent at all times.

In contrast a lot of Japanese teachers have always only ever taught me to always move forward and never move back. Seme down the centre line in one direction.

Seme Ashi i have learnt can be applied not only in the context of forward movement but also multi directional movement.

Cho Sensei also teaches me to use more attack patterns, multiple techniques to create opennings but by still maintaining seme over the opponent.

The content is the same as what I have learnt is Japan, a Men or Mori is the same. The form, function, and purpose. However the approaches towards it can be different.

This is based on the traditional Japanese teaching thats widely spread in Europe, I've noticed these days that there is a lot more inter mixing of ideas between Kumdo and Kendo however in Korea and Japan.

[johnkichu]

Jon,

Thanks for the well thought out post. Your observations mirror mine, and there is a lot of misinformation out there on this topic, especially by people who have never bothered to practice under both systems.

And you're right, there are tons and tons of exchanges between Korea and Japan when it comes to kendo/kumdo. There seem to be a lot of mutual respect & friendship between the practioners on both sides over there. People not in Japan or Korea seem more concerned about endlessly debating this.

[cesarekim]

My dojang just organized our second fall seminar with Inoue Shigeaki Sensei, 8 dan hanshi (beumsa) this weekend. He's the AJKF exec director in charge of Team Japan for WKC 14 and a friend of our sensei who is a Korean 8 dan... He flew back to Japan yesterday and will be leading the retreat to select the Team Japan members this weekend... He says his ancestors came over to Japan from Korea some centuries ago and he goes to Korea quite regularly.

His seminar was quite fascinating in that he emphasized seme and zanshin and the spiritual posture of the practitioner as in kisae (the shape of the ki). One of the points he emphasized was that one should NOT just do zanshin after attempting a stroke but only do it when actually convinced that it was a good hit. If the first strike was not successful, your mindset should be that you try for a second, third or more strokes until you have achieved your goal. This was fascinating in that it was exactly the same message that Rhee Jong Nim (current KKA VP and 8 dan Beumsa) was hammering us with 5-6 years ago. Regardless of whether you practice kumdo or kendo (and let's keep in mind that they are the same characters pronounced differently in the two languages), it appears that the mindset is the same at the top levels.

I tried to give him a Korean University Kumdo Federation baseball cap but he laughed and refused saying he didn't think it appropriate for the time being.... He still liked the Brunello di Montalcino and the Amarone that people were giving him. Seems like many top sensei in both countries have a weakness for good Italian wine.

[johnkichu]

One of the points he emphasized was that one should NOT just do zanshin after attempting a stroke but only do it when actually convinced that it was a good hit.

Ha ha - I have to laugh at this. We get whacked in the back of the head if we do this against our sabumnims.

By the way, Ceasare - how did you communicate with Shigeaki Sensei? Does he speak Korean or English? Or do you speak Japanese?

[cesarekim]

He speaks English and I sort of understand Japanese. We also had two Japanese kenshi who live in Italy at the seminar. They are 6 and 5 dan and are very good. They also speak Italian well so we had no problems understanding Inoue Sensei.

Inoue Sensei would wack you in the back of the head if you trotted past him without scoring something that at least resembled an ippon. Was sort of fun to watch our 7dan's getting plastered, btw. Sort of reminded me of when I saw a 70 year old 8 dan hanshi sensei get scolded by his 95 year old 9 dan sensei for not showing enough seme. It was really odd to see somebody that good and venerable taking a school child posture as his sensei was telling him off.

[June]

Hmm...this is interesting. My buddy asked the question, what is good manners when practicing with an 8th Dan sensei? He told me that it's different between a lot of sensei's, but the proper thing to do is to try to just go for clean big motion strikes and go through.

If you try to do tournament style on him, you'll just piss them off? You should be committed to your strike and blast through. If you do tai-atari then try strong hiki waza, but always go through.

I understand the concept of trying to "fake" zanshin after a missed hit or something like that, but was he telling people to stop if they miss and set up again instantly? Just trying to wrap my mind around the concept he was teaching.

[cesarekim]

The message was don't kid yourself. Form does not substitute substance. If you didn't actually make a clean hit, you should be trying for a second or higher. He also was very clear about doing KOTE and IF it missed going for MEN. No faking the KOTE to go for a cheap MEN. Another message that I think he was trying to transmit was that a cheap win is worthless. Either take a great victory or be willing to set one up for your opponent. No holding back...

[johnkichu]

He also was very clear about doing KOTE and IF it missed going for MEN. No faking the KOTE to go for a cheap MEN.

Agree completely. This is something that a lot of beginners seem to have trouble with. You must really go for a KOTE hit - its purpose is not to be a feint (does anyone really get faked out by this, anyway?).

Some guys are very comical - they come no where near any kind of a hit, yet scream their head off and try to run by you and act like they scored a majestic point.

[samsuh]

Ouch! This sounds like me yesterday...

The message was don't kid yourself. Form does not substitute substance. If you didn't actually make a clean hit, you should be trying for a second or higher. He also was very clear about doing KOTE and IF it missed going for MEN. No faking the KOTE to go for a cheap MEN. Another message that I think he was trying to transmit was that a cheap win is worthless. Either take a great victory or be willing to set one up for your opponent. No holding back...

[b8amack]

Jon,

Thanks for the well thought out post. Your observations mirror mine, and there is a lot of misinformation out there on this topic, especially by people who have never bothered to practice under both systems.

And you're right, there are tons and tons of exchanges between Korea and Japan when it comes to kendo/kumdo. There seem to be a lot of mutual respect & friendship between the practioners on both sides over there. People not in Japan or Korea seem more concerned about endlessly debating this.

What there seem to be in this thread I started is a lot of people who I suspect do not know what they are talking about making empirical statements.

This sentence:

There seem to be a lot of mutual respect & friendship between the practioners on both sides over there.

for example, is filled with a cheerily naive optimism I wished I still possessed. It's also bull****.

Yeah, we've all heard the saw about jjagun mori in kumdo vs. O-Men in kendo, but that's not what I was talking about. Regionalistic (or dojangistic -is that a word?) preferences of the same cuts are not differences. Differences in the cuts are differences. For instance, I never once practiced doing a do while moving forward (rather than diagonally; ie: hitting the left side AND passing on the left side with the sword straight, rather than letting it come across and passing on the right) when I lived in Korea. Yet I practiced it all the time in kendo. I'm sure there are some dojang that have practiced this, but I don't think it's common.

Another difference I've noticed is that kendo still believes in the block against do/hori, which is something I have only ever seen done once when I lived in Korea. I was taught that it's a useless block, because of how easy it is to score orun-hori (migi-do) on someone who manages to block your hori/do cut.
Yet when I was explaining that to some of the lower-kyus in my kendo dojo, by letting them try to escape from a "successful" hori block, the instructor was furious with me. Even though not one of them could escape from the block in time to counter migi-do.

[cesarekim]

b8amack,
Not sure what you mean here... If you talk to the guys in the KUKF (the college federation in the KKA), there are tons of training sessions and tournament style sessions with the Japanese kids. Some of the pro teams go to the tokuren sessions with the Tokyo Police guys as well. I know a bunch of Korean 7 dans who are friends and practice with their Japanese counterparts... This is from direct observation and talking to my friends who live/practice/teach kumdo in Korea. They are 6-7 dan practitioners who are former Team Korea members. Their hoobae who were on the team in Taipei seem to confirm this as well. Considering I've known a lot of these guys for over 10 years, I'm pretty confident they're not telling me a bs story just to keep the gyoppo guy happy....

As far as the technical/tactical differences are concerned, it was interesting to note that current Team Korea members are the product of the cross-pollination process with the tokuren guys in both training methods and techniques. Sumi and Inoue sensei were pointing out how Koreans were showing a very "Japanese" style in the Taipei competition. You actually got to see Big waza and straight body kendo being displayed by the Koreans as well as the traditional machine gun style... If you look at the AJKF championships of the last couple of years and compare them with the SBS or President's Cup, you won't see the huge differences you would have seen 10-15 years ago.

As far as the huri thing is concerned, we're taught that it's a kind of cut that needs to be modified depending on the muhri cut you are working off of. Our sensei used to do a lot of huri as he learned from Kim Yon Dal, the huri God. Against Sumi sensei, he would usually do the diagonal step. In an asageiko on New Year's morning about 9 years ago, Sumi sensei was practicing at our dojang and closing to avoid getting hit with huri. Our sensei switched to a straight huri to the left with follow through on the left and still blasted a couple of cannon shots. His comment was that huri is not a shikake waza per se but more of an oji waza and by definition it needed to react to the situation...

Please correct my post where you see the nonsense/optimistic bs you mentioned in your post.

Cheers.

Hope all you guys in the US had a good Thanksgiving.

[sleepykid156]

[/QUOTE]
Hope all you guys in the US had a good Thanksgiving.[/QUOTE]

thank you, although i didnt have turkey, still a good thanksgiving

[johnkichu]

b8amack,

I also don't know quite what to make of your post. Maybe your stay in Korea wasn't all that enjoyable for you.

What there seem to be in this thread I started is a lot of people who I suspect do not know what they are talking about making empirical statements.

Perhaps this is you? Personally, I practice at both kumdo and kendo schools. What I say is based on conversations I've had with several ex-members of the Korean national teams and VP of the KKA. What are you basing your statements on? Go google online, and you''ll find tons of examples, also. SNU and Tokyo University kendo clubs have regular exchanges, for example. Exchanges are common not only between competitors, but between educators and teachers of the art.

for example, is filled with a cheerily naive optimism I wished I still possessed. It's also bull****.

Again - what are you basing your statement on? Dark pessimism?

Yeah, we've all heard the saw about jjagun mori in kumdo vs. O-Men in kendo, but that's not what I was talking about. Regionalistic (or dojangistic -is that a word?) preferences of the same cuts are not differences. Differences in the cuts are differences. For instance, I never once practiced doing a do while moving forward (rather than diagonally; ie: hitting the left side AND passing on the left side with the sword straight, rather than letting it come across and passing on the right) when I lived in Korea. Yet I practiced it all the time in kendo. I'm sure there are some dojang that have practiced this, but I don't think it's common.

This may be more of a comment on the dojang you practiced at. Where did you practice? We practice do going backwards, forwards, sideways, and diagonally. And this seems to be the case for all the east coast kumdo schools, from Tampa to NY, from what I can see. As Ceasare points out, situation dictates how you cut. And I see this at both my kumdo and kendo schools.

Another difference I've noticed is that kendo still believes in the block against do/hori, which is something I have only ever seen done once when I lived in Korea. I was taught that it's a useless block, because of how easy it is to score orun-hori (migi-do) on someone who manages to block your hori/do cut.

How long did you practice in Korea? We typically don't want beginners to block, but blocking techniques are taught and practiced extensively as you progress. Blocks & counter moves against, mori, huri, and sonmok. I actually find that the kumdo sabumnims teach this earlier than kendo senseis.

Yet when I was explaining that to some of the lower-kyus in my kendo dojo, by letting them try to escape from a "successful" hori block, the instructor was furious with me. Even though not one of them could escape from the block in time to counter migi-do.

I'm not sure what to make of this, but when in Rome, you should do what the Romans do. If the sensei doesn't want you to do it, don't do it. I don't know what level you're at, but maybe he feels someone of your level shouldn't be doing it.

[johnkichu]

Hope all you guys in the US had a good Thanksgiving.[/QUOTE]

thank you, although i didnt have turkey, still a good thanksgiving[/QUOTE]


Thanks guys!

Ceasare - what do you guys do in Italy for T-giving or Chusok?

[cesarekim]

Chusok we celebrate Korean style. We actually celebrate most of the major Korean holidays with tok-guk, jeon and all that stuff. Drives my wife and my mother nuts to spend 8 hours to prepare and then have it demolished in about 20 minutes but that's Korean food for you...

I was talking to some friends in Philly yesterday. They mentioned they'd pardoned the turkey and had decided on a nice Argentine chunk of beef. Can't really blame them....